[Music] the UPHCA, a pipeline podcast. [Applause] [Music]
Live Interview at USCA Conference 2025: In your opinion, how can trade schools better reach kids these days?
Interviewee 1: Well, I think um just getting early access to kids like exposure I think is really important. So, we do college and career events.
Interviewee 1: So, I think getting in the schools and teaching them at an early age is really important.
Interviewee 1: Just exposure, getting in there, teaching them, exposing to what’s out there.
Interviewer: For the kindergarteners to fifth graders, what kinds of careers or jobs do you hear them talking about the most or talking about wanting to get when they get older the most?
Interviewee 1: I think community service jobs they hear talk a lot about like firefighters and police officers talking about nurses or doctors. Um and then depending on like their parents job I do hear like I’ve seen some electricians or plumbers but I think um it’s like their everyday hero in their brain like firefighters, police officers.
What kinds of careers do you hear kids these days uh asking the most about or the most interested when they grow up?
Interviewee 1:Um recently I’ve heard a lot about cosmetology and I live in a community that is a farming community.
Interviewee 1: So how to work on agriculture and farming and like uh repairing tractors or machine work. So that’s very cool. right in the right in the area of trades.
What is the most effective messaging for trade schools that you’ve seen?
Interviewee 1:Uh presentations just getting in front of the students so they can ask questions, they can see pictures, examples, so they can start to visualize themselves moving that direction.
In your opinion, what can trade schools do better to outreach to your students?
Interviewee 1:I think just coming in maybe just talk just talking to the students like coming in for like these presentations that you’re doing because it just opens up the you know the opportunities for them. Yeah.
Interviewee 1: We’re providing like field trips where they can go if like it’s an actual physical facility or something and going there and seeing it. Um cuz like I said it just kind of brings it to life for students.
What kinds of careers do you hear your students talking about the most or or aspiring to become once they graduate the most?
Interviewee 1: I would say a majority of them are want to be some sort of business owner is a big one, but that also includes people who are wanting to do trades.
Interviewee Group: Um I have a lot right now actually that want to be electricians. Um some that are interested in doing uh construction or like even architecture, design, that kind of stuff. Um and we get a lot of cosmetology too. Yeah. In the medical field, I think it’s always big. Medical field. Yeah.
What opportunities do you have for students to explore the trades?
Interviewee 1: At my school, we really have construction and foods. Um construction and both of those continue into the high school.
In your opinion, how can these trade schools or ones like ours reach out to uh reach out to your students better?
Interviewee 1: I think our students don’t have a good understanding of all the different types of careers that are under the construction banner. And so I think coming and talking to our students and exposing them to the different types of things they can do with their hands and how to get there would be super helpful.
What is the most effective messaging for trade schools that you’ve seen?
Interviewee 1: You can make a lot more money. And you can do it while you are in high school.
Interviewee 1: So, like I always tell kids when I was a high school counselor, it could be a hobby. It could be a if whatever your future plans fall through it’s like but you will always have that certification and we will always meet people in those fields.
UPHCA: Hi everybody, welcome to the UPCHA pipeline podcast and we have a very special guest with us today, Alan Crookton who is the educational director for the UPCA Academy. Alan, thanks for joining us today.
Alan: Yeah, thanks for having me.
UPHCA: So what we want to talk to you about today is some stuff involving uh the trades and especially like getting more youth involved with the trades and why it’s important and why more kids aren’t joining the trades or looking into the trades as an option for a career path. And so, uh, in your opinion, is is there some sort of hidden bias against the trades or working in the trades?
Alan: You know, I I’m coming from a school counseling background and when I look at it, when you look at all of the teachers, all of the counselors, all of the administrators, you know, they all went to through a university path. And so a lot of times when we talk about careers, they tell their story like, “Well, my story was to go to the university and they wear their college shirts and hang their college pennants in their classrooms.” But for a kid that wants to be an electrician or a plumber or go into HBAC, they’re not going to find those programs at the university. And so I it’s a great question, but the short answer is is yes. And it’s it’s not like they’re intentionally trying to be biased. they’re just telling their story, but there’s very few people telling the trade career path story in the schools. So, that’s just something we just need to kind of be aware of.
UPHCA: We had an opportunity to talk with some uh counselors at the Utah School Counselor Association or USA and trying to figure out a way that the trades need to be more front and center with the kids. What can counselors do to tell people about the trades more?
Alan: I think the main thing is I mean when we when we talk about this going to college like after school you should go after high school you should go to college a lot of times that is interpreted go to the university and really college is anything after high school. If it’s a fourmonth labbotomy certificate, that’s college. If it’s an eightmonth salon, you know, hair salon, cosmetology, that’s college. And so, we really need to think, I mean, a university is just uh a conglomerate of colleges. you got the college of engineering, the college of education, but for the the hands-on trade schools, the skills-based learning, um, you know, it is going to college, but it just it’s not the university path. And so, I I guess for me, what I wish would be the focus of is there should be a separate career pathway that is the apprenticeship career path. And it is very different than a university path. And so it’s it’s the message is starting to get out there, but yeah, it’s it’s not one that is very familiar with a lot of students and parents.
UPHCA: Do you think that’s partly due because maybe the counselors are aware aren’t aware of what’s out there and what’s available in the geographic vicinity or do you think it’s just a maybe they just don’t know?
Alan: I mean, I think a lot of it too is just our culture. I think a lot of it even comes from the parents. I mean, I remember when I was in high school, I I found out that there was a construction class and that they actually went out and they build the portables for the schools. And I thought, well, that is cool. I mean, it’s a pretty simple structure, but they’re working under, you know, the the teacher is a general contractor, and the kids actually build those portable units. So, anytime you drive by a portable that’s outside of the school, that has been built by students. And I wanted to sign up for that class. And I remember I came home with my schedule and I showed my dad. I said, “I want to take construction.” And he said, “No, you don’t want to take construction. That’s where all the screwoffs go.” And I thought, “Oh, so if you’re not a good student and you’re kind of a screw off, you take automotive, you take construction.” And so I there is a little bit of this culture, I think, that you can’t do well in the trades and if you want to have a real career, go to college. And the research just simply does not support that. In fact, the research shows quite the opposite. No, that hands-on skill is fantastic. When I look back to how I know how to help my nephew work on his car, goes back to my days in the automotive class and how I know how to weld things. I I own a welder and weld things. Was my welding class in high school and some of the most valuable skills that I learned were in some of those trade classes and they just pass on and help you out in so much more in life.
UPHCA: What is the Academy doing for the trades?
Alan: The UPHCA stands for the Utah Plumbing and Heating Contractors Association. And so long story short, most high school kids when you ask them like, “What do you want to do when you graduate high school?” rarely does somebody say, “Well, I want to be a plumber.” And so, you know, you think about every house you drive by, every building, every structure has plumbing in it. Every person you see today will use plumbing. We all use plumbing. And so, the demand for plumbing is huge, but nobody’s going into the field. And so, the we had a bunch of plumbing contractors get together and say, “Hey, why don’t we form our own academy? Why don’t we form our own school? It’ll be industry-ledd, industrydriven, which basically means, hey, we have contractors saying, here’s what you need to learn in order to be successful in this field. And so, it’s just super applicable. Um, students are able to get in, you know, roll up their sleeves, get to work, and become a fully licensed journeyman plumber. And yeah, we have plumbers doing um you know, 18 year 18-year-old kids right out of high school doing 50 $60,000 a year on up to six figures. And so that’s really the one of the myths I’d like to debunk is if you look at the research, um those in the trades are out earning their bachelor degree peers, their bachelor degree graduates, they’re out earning them and they’re doing it with zero college debt. And so it just gives them a really good head start in life.And so I guess as far as when you think about the students, we talked a little bit about oh it’s the slacker community or they’re the ones who go into the trades, but who would benefit with more exposure to the trades? Because obviously plumbing is civilization, correct? And every house has HVAC, every house has plumbing, every house has masonry, every house has everything. The trades build everything.
UPHCA: Who would benefit the mo to the most exposure to the trades to get the professional kids that we need going?
Alan: You know, that’s a great question. I think one example I give when I visit with my students, I show a picture of like Luke Skywalker and Yoda and and I say, “This is an apprenticeship that we’re all familiar with.” Like Luke, he learned how to be a Jedi by did did he go to a school and did he did he read books? Did he write papers on how the force worked? Uh did he do you know read articles and write papers on how to fly his spaceship? No, he was out in the field doing things. And so if that kind of speaks to you and you’re more of a doer like, “Hey, I want to actually fly the X-wing and I want to use the lightsaber and I want to get out there and actually do the work.” And you have someone who’s kind of mentoring you and watching over you. That’s kind of like Obi-Wan or Yoda. That is that is an apprenticeship. So we have a lot of students. I wouldn’t even say they’re they’re screwoffs or bad students. They just don’t want to sit in a desk and read about being a Jedi. They want to go out and do the field work. And I think it’s really something that’s it’s nothing’s wrong with the student. It’s something that’s wrong with our education system. Um, I mean, maybe I’m talking a little bit too long here, but when I when I was in my master’s program, I remember learning about a demographic of student that was at highest risk for failure, and it’s the Native Americans. And when you look at it culturally, Native Americans, they grew up hunting and fishing and and and making things with their hands. And it was all this, you know, field work. And then the white men come along and they they pick them up and they put them at a desk and say, ‘You need to read this book and they say, ‘Well, I don’t learn this way. I don’t like to learn this way. And then we call them a failure. And really, that’s just a a a cultural breakdown of the system. And so we have a lot of students that are they’re sharp, they’re smart, but they’re doers. They want to they want to learn by doing. And um so I think we as a society need to adjust a little bit to say hey are are we adjusting to the demand of the economy what needs to be done.
UPHCA: And when it comes to that cost benefit uh scenario, when it comes to going into college, getting a degree, getting into debt, all those other things, and then how much money you have the potential ma making in college in that career path compared to something like the trades, um why would somebody want to look at a career in the trades?
Alan: Yeah, that’s awesome. I mean, awesome question. I had my my son, he’s in high school. He asked me this question. He said, “Dad, why is the plumber’s house next door bigger than than the attorneys, uh, that’s in in our little culac.” And I said, “Well, that’s interesting.” Uh, they’re both about the same age, you know, 26, 27. And so I I kind of broke it down with them and said, “Well, you know, here in Utah, the average tuition in the state of Utah is $15,000 a year. Some are more, some are less. And so you go away to the university and you make negative $15,000. Yeah. You might be able to wait tables or something. Um or you can go work as a apprentice and you can make about $50 to $60,000. And so just in year one on basic economics, that’s about a $85,000 difference between the university versus the apprenticeship. So, you do the math over four years, you know, your your four-year college graduate can graduate with about $60,000 in debt. That’s just averaged. And your four-year apprentice has earned $250,000. That’s a $300,000 difference at age 22. So at age 22, our journeyman plumbers are buying homes, putting down payments on homes, and just have a significant head start. Um, now I’m not saying don’t go to the university. There are some paths that, you know, if my son wanted to be a veterinarian, I’d say, man, that you have to go to the university to do that or to be an accountant or something like that. But there are a lot of highpaying good jobs that are AI proof, Amazon proof um in the in the skilled trades.
UPHCA: And you know, given all of this that we’ve discussed, why do you think the trades career path isn’t more highlighted in our schools?
Alan: Yeah. And I think it goes back to that hidden bias. I I don’t think it’s I don’t even know if the schools really recognize it. Um, you know, I spent a lot of time up in Alaska. I I we talked about this at the beginning of the show. I I grew up on a commercial salmon fish site. I grew up mending nets, fixing boats, um, you know, working 18our days, picking fish. And the Alaska community is very bluecollar. you know, they got the Alaska pipeline, they got fishing, and it’s it’s almost different than it is here on the Wasatch front where the the trades, I would say out of 10 kids who graduate high school, like six of them go into the trades and it’s just very tradeheavy that they they go to school and they learn how to weld and work on cars and and all of these hands-on things, but they also see that, man, this is a good career. And then it’s kind of funny because you’ll have the kid who’s not very mechanical and doesn’t know how to use any tools. You’ll see the teachers be like, “You know what? You might want to think of going to the university. Like, I don’t know if the trades are for you.” And so, it’s kind of flipped. Like, here in Utah, it’s it’s it’s not that way. And we’re starting to see it. I mean, everyone talks about this housing crisis here in Utah, like there’s not enough homes. Duh. That’s why prices are so high. It’s not a housing crisis. It’s a construction worker crisis. We cannot find the people enough people to build these homes fast enough. And you talk to the people in in the trades, they’re like, “Well, I’m already doing 60 hours a week. I I can’t I can’t go any faster.” Um, I talked with one guy the other day. He’s like, “I could double the size of my company if I could just find the workers.” Um, so the demand is there. It’s just yeah, there’s kind of this ignorance gap of of how well you could do in the trade.
UPHCA: Where could people learn more about choosing this as a career path?
Alan: I mean some options are there’s our website. They can go to the upca tradeschool.org and learn about our program. We offer um HVAC hydronics, which is like radiant heat. We offer the full four-level plumbing program that’s fully compatible with Department of Labor. But I’d also say another option is they could just go on to if they just Google like Utah apprenticeships. Um there’s some great information on there. If they just go to Utah apprenticeships, there are so many programs out there. It’s called apprenticeshiputah.gov and there are dozens and dozens of programs out there that businesses are willing to pay you to do. So in the the apprenticeship career path, not only do you earn while you learn, like you’re earning $20 an hour, but your schooling is paid for. And so it’s better than a scholarship. They’re not only paying for your school, but you’re getting paid to go to school. And so that’s just a couple options that they can look at.
UPHCA: And just to just to clarify, could you explain what is an apprenticeship?
Alan: I think of that Luke Skywalker analogy, you know, he learned from a mentor. Um another analogy I give is it’s kind of like a learner’s permit. when you learn to drive, um, they give you a learner’s permit. The learner’s permit would be like an apprenticeship license where they say, “Hey, we’re going to put you behind the wheel and we’re going to let you drive under one condition. You have to have somebody with a driver’s license in the car with you. Now, the driver’s license is like a journeyman’s license.” And so, that’s how we all learn to drive as we get behind the wheel. I mean, we all know that if you read books on driving and you write papers on driving, you’re not going to know how to drive. You learn to drive by driving, but it does need to be supervised. And so, you get that learner’s permit and you’re supervised by someone with a driver’s license, and they say, “Oh, don’t forget this. Don’t forget that, or you should do this, or you should do that.” That’s really how the apprenticeship works is uh you’re a able to do hands-on work. you’re paid while you’re doing that hands-on work. Um, so really the classroom becomes the job site. When you go to the job site, the construction site or whatever, that is your classroom. And um, you have to have I think you have to have 8,000 hours as an apprentice working in order to get your journeyman’s license. And so that that computes to about 3 to four years of full-time work. Um, but then after four years, you know, you get your your learner’s permit transitions into a a regular permit. You get your journeyman’s license and and you’re able to supervise other apprentices and so forth. So, that’s kind of how I explain the the apprenticeship career path.
UPHCA: Is there anything you’d like to share or tell people about before we call this episode good?
Alan: I mean, maybe one final thought. A lot of people think, “Oh man, if I go into the construction trades, it’s going to break down my body and it’s going to be so hard and when I get to be 40 or 50, I don’t want to be doing all this grunt work.” And really, that’s another myth that I would just like to dispel. We have people that they go into the trades, they work while they’re young, they get all this field experience, and just like any profession, as they get more experienced and more pay, they get into management, they get into supervisory roles, they get into sales, and uh I mean, we have a guy on our our staff who he’s like the chief safety officer of this huge company over the you know, it’s like a a nationally based company. and he’s like, “Well, I’m in charge of safety now, but I started as an HVAC technician and I’ve worked my way up to this role.” And so, there are so many other roles that branch out in the construction trades. Um, but really what the economy wants right now is a skillsbased education. And that’s really like I’d like to leave you with that is whatever program you do, you should ask yourself, what skills am I getting from this? Because employers ultimately want to know what you know how to do. Yeah, and as you get older and start to move on up after a few decades, you might end up owning your own business if that’s the route that you choose to do, too. So, you know, it’s been fantastic.
UPHCA: So, great having you with us on today and I have uh really enjoyed our conversation. Be sure to check out uh upca.net and check out the programs and and the other things that we’ve talked about today. But, um thanks again, Alan, for coming on.
Alan: Really appreciate you and uh hope you hope you have yourself a great day.